Twenty Mule Team

[BM1]

I had been l,ooking for a cheap Carboy cleaner and tried several products including baking soda,vinegar,OxyClean,etc.PBW is cheap enough to use with coservative dosages but,sort of,expensive to buy ( avg.$8.00/lb.)I heard and read some things about 'Boax/Boron' and it seemed to be worth a try (avg.~$1.00/lb.).I was amazed at how well it works.

http://chemistry.about.com/od/howthings ... xworks.htm

I had a carboy that had been emptied after fermenting a Wheat beer and let stand for 3 days,or so.the crust around the top was dried and rock hard.Now PBW would have no problem with this,right?OK.I used about 1/2cup Borax and a few drops of dish washing liquid in tap-hot water.jug filled to the top and let stand overnight.Next morning...all residue (without ANY scrubbing)was completely disolved and suspended in the mixture with no sediment.Only a light swipe with my brush was all that was needed to get the rest.

Just someting I thought worth sharing.









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[Don]

I have stayed away from dish soap just because it can leave behind unwanted chemicals ( flower scents etc.)
I buy PBW at @$4.75 a pound buying it in 8# containers. (at 50# it's almost half that price)
I just dump the yeast out in a gallon jug, fill the carboy with hot water and 3 scoops (@ 3 ozs.) let it set for 1 to 7 days, then rinse with water.
It doesn't get much simpler.

Another way to clean is to use Oxyclean, I know people that use 1 cup of bleach with 1 cup of distilled vinegar let it sit for 2 days.
On that note, always add the chemicals (Bleach, TSP, whatever) to the water, not the water to the chemicals. And if you are mixing bleach and vinegar, don't mix the chemicals then add them to the water, this is somewhat toxic and produces chlorine gas, put the bleach in the water, then put the vinegar in the water.

ALWAYS use a carboy handle or carrier when working with wet carboys.

http://www.northernbrewer.com/brewing/b ... tml[url] http://www.northernbrewer.com/brewing/b ... andle.html[/url]

Risks Associated with Borax
It is also toxic to people. Signs of chronic toxic exposure include red and peeling skin, seizures, and kidney failure. The estimated lethal dose (ingested) for adults is 15-20 grams; less than 5 grams can kill a child or pet. For this reason, borax should not be used around food.

[Don]

That might explain the rash I had after Wednesdays meeting....

[Chris Alvey]

Risks Associated with Borax
It is also toxic to people. Signs of chronic toxic exposure include red and peeling skin, seizures, and kidney failure. The estimated lethal dose (ingested) for adults is 15-20 grams; less than 5 grams can kill a child or pet. For this reason, borax should not be used around food.

My wife uses this stuff to make home-made laundry detergent. I guess killing me slowly has lost it's appeal and she is doubling her efforts.

[Don]

Just don't eat your clothes and you should be ok for a few more years.

[BM1]

Bleach and PBW are also toxic to humans.Bleach has been known to kill children.I did not imply that one should leave in the caboy to mix with the next batch of wort.I was merely sharing information.

DISHWASHER DETERGENTS http://www.globalhealingcenter.com/top- ... icals.html

Most products contain chlorine in a dry form that is highly concentrated.# 1 cause of child poisonings, according to poison control centers.



Mixing bleach with vinegar can be dangerous due to the release of chlorine gas.There is a way to do it with limited risk but not with no risk.
http://chemistry.about.com/od/toxicchem ... inegar.htm
However,I have never had a need to do this as safer,effective sanitizers do exist and are far easier to mix and use.But that has nothing to do with cleaning a carboy.I just can't believe that my cleaners risk ending up in my beer and levels approaching toxicity.

http://www.globalhealingcenter.com/top- ... icals.html

http://www.fivestarchemicals.com/tech/pbw.pdf

http://www.fivestarchemicals.com/tech/starsan.pdf

It seems that all household and/or industrial/commercial cleaners and sanitizers, that I am aware of and/or use,come with some risks and,some,far exceeding the hazards or boron/borax/twenty mule team cleaner.Furthermore,I am propense to make myself aware of reasonably knowable risks involved with chemicals,cleaners and other additives/enhancers that I use and make my choices somewhat intelectually.I follow up my equipment cleanings with a more than thorough rinse,even sometimes with an assuredly non toxic/potable subsance such as sodium bicarbonate or non iodized salt solution which I also rinse with tap water(even after pbw and especialy oxiclean).

So,don't worry.I won't be bringing any life threatening beer to the meetings for tasting.

Please don't take this reply the wrong way.Just sharing more info.It's only a chat forum.

[Don]

Dotto

[ArtCox]

Best remedy is to not let it get empty. Brew More Beer...