My Liquid Yeast Nightmares

Dutch · Post by **Dutch** » Mon May 19, 2008 7:05 am

For what I believe is the third time I have again had a problem with liquid yeast. I made a batch of Belgian Wit and pitched WL 400. I got the WL400 from the CO-OP on St Joes, brought it home immediately [kept cool], kept in my fridge @ about 39 deg F, took it out to room temperature for about an hour and a half, gently agitated a couple of times during the period. Got the wort chilled to about 70 deg F, pitched the yeast and whipped with a whisk, covered and waited. about 48 hours went by and no action in airlock. I decided to open up and take a look! There was about a 1" thick covering sort of indicated to me that things HAD INDEED STARTED but to make sure I sprinkled about half a packet of a new SAFBREW WB-06 Wheat Ber Yeast [which had come with the extract kit]. Things happened in minutes!
Should I just have been a bit more patient - I keep hearing that the liquid yeast takes off like gangbusters. My experience is just the opposite - the dry yeast has never given me a problem. Could the liquid have been slightly compromised.
Baffled

sirgiovanni · Post by **sirgiovanni** » Mon May 19, 2008 7:35 am

Well, a couple things.

Depending on the date of the yeast, it may take a bit longer to activate. For instance, I mostly only use Wyeast. And I only buy 2 at a time so they don't sit for more than 5 or 6 weeks at my house. Even refrigerated, they will take longer to activate. They say one day per month of age. The Wyeast is nice because you look at the date and pop the internal pack and let sit on your counter for however many days=months of age. Did you see the date at the time you purchased?

Second, I never use liquid yeasts without making a yeast starter a good 24 hours in advance. Liquid yeasts are generally not sold in quantities that would do well in starting a 5 gallon, let alone 10 gallon batches like I do. You can use malt extract to for your starter but I exclusively use honey for my starters. It works like a charm. ;)

4 cups of water with 8 tablespoons honey. Boil it with a dash of yeast nutrient, cool it and pitch your yeast. You'll have a great culture by the time you start brewing the next morning. Shake it up real good and pitch it at the end of your brew day.

Chris Alvey · Post by **Chris Alvey** » Mon May 19, 2008 2:39 pm

One tube (or pack) of even the freshest tube/pack, like he was saying, is definitely not the ideal amount of yeast for a moderate-gravity beer. Sure, it'll make beer, but it's just not optimum for things like complete attenuation, proper ester production (or lack thereof), moderation of fusel alcohol production, etc etc.

I always use a maltose-based starter (like dried malt extract) for my starters since that's what they are going to be used to taking in sugars with.

I have found, with oxygen added from a little 02 tank, that 12 to 24 hours lag is about what I expect.

I think the reason you saw apparent activity so quickly with the dry MAY have been some places for any CO2 to to nucleate and come out of solution. Maybe not if it wasn't pretty quick, just something I had thought of.

Don · Post by **Don** » Tue May 20, 2008 10:02 am

I agree that one tube (or package) is on the light side for most beers without a starter. Check out Mr. Malty's site to help you plan your yeast needs. It's helped me.

http://www.mrmalty.com/calc/calc.html

I just made a English Old Ale with a tube of yeast I bought in January and keep in the refrigerator at 40 degs. I made a starter 5 days ahead of time. Since the yeast was so old (4 month after use by date) I knew that I was going to have to build it back up at least once to recover what died off, then I cooled and dumped the liquid off and added more to get it up to where I needed it for the batch. The beer, SG 1.057, took off in 6 hours. I also always use a air pump for 20 minutes to get O2 back into my beer before pitching.
I use DME and bottled water with a 10 minute boil at SG 1.040 for my starter.

BM1 · Post by **BM1** » Wed May 21, 2008 11:18 pm

I usually have to wait 2-3 days for my liquid yeast to show activity,then it goes nuts.The downside is that 2 of five times (typically),I have the rotten luck

of having something wicked start up fist,destroying my wort.I haven't done starters,yet

(I'm chicken),so I play it safe and use the dry yeast.Maybe someday I'll do the starter,but for now...

sirgiovanni · Post by **sirgiovanni** » Fri May 23, 2008 7:37 am

I've never had a problem with a yeast starter. Just pick you up a beaker big enough to hold about 6 cups of water.

Boil your sugar solution for short time , whatever you want to use for food (malt extract or honey) with yeast nutrient if you want, put a lid on it when done. I close up the valve in a clean sink and fill the bottom with cold water and place the closed pot in the sink. I usually change the water out after about 5 minutes to cold again and then you're pretty much ready to go after another 5 minutes.

Sanitize your beaker, pour your sugar solution and yeast. Shake the hell out of it with a rubber stopper to aerate. Put on an air lock and it's ready.

Takes like 15 minutes to do this and it will make your beer take off soooo much quicker! I've never observed a difference between using malt extract or honey. I just kinda got a way from extracts because they always seem to have weird off flavors (in larger quantities) and I can't really explain extracts in my middle age world.

Chris Norrick · Post by **Chris Norrick** » Fri May 23, 2008 8:29 am

I've made up a huge batch of 1.040 wort from old 2-row but instead of making beer out of it, I put it in mason jars and canned it. Now when I want a starter, I just pull a few jars off the shelf, sanitize them and pour them into a couple of 1 gallon or 1/2 gallon jugs. Oxygenate them, add yeast, add stir bar, and put them on my homemade stir plates: Stir Plate Construction. This is for a A/C fan, I also made one with a D/C fan.

It took awhile to can all those jars, but it saves a lot of time in the end.

john mills · Post by **john mills** » Fri May 23, 2008 11:29 am

Chris,
I've got some really old grain that I'd like to do this with.
Can you post your canning proceedure? Specifically like what mash/sparge process did you used if different that normal, how much head room did you leave in the jars, how long, and at what pressure you canned at, did you boil before putting in jars, etc?

Chris Norrick · Post by **Chris Norrick** » Fri May 23, 2008 3:04 pm

It's been a year since I did this so the details are fuzzy. I actually need to make up another batch so I'll come up with the full procedure and put in another post.

From what I remember it was really like a normal brew day except I only did around a 50 minute boil and had no hop additions. I put them in quart jars filled to the neck, which I can fit 7 of in my canner. I did this on a turkey burner set really low, outside, I'm not sure for how long. I think I used the medium pressure setting and took them out as soon as I could open the lid. This is supposed to be a very bad idea as the glass might break, but I'm impatient and none broke.

Details to follow when I check my notes.

Don · Post by **Don** » Fri May 23, 2008 6:17 pm

Here is a link to canning starters.
http://hbd.org/pbabcock/oldsite/canstarter.html
I haven't done it yet but it's on my list.

Dutch · Post by **Dutch** » Sat May 24, 2008 6:43 am

With the advances in dry yeast, is the gap in performance really that big between dry and liquid? Does all the work associated with managing liquid yeast actually warrant its use? Maybe we could have a meeting sesion on YEAST, yeast types, new yeasts, starters and yeast problems in general. We could also touch on advances in the yeast supply train!
Any thoughts?
DUTCH

Dwayne_Delaney · Post by **Dwayne_Delaney** » Sat May 24, 2008 8:29 am

When I first started brewing, I used liquid yeast exclusively, believing what I had read at the time, that dry yeast was an inferior product. I have since shifted to dry yeast without any noticeable drop in quality. The only time I use liquid yeast these days is when I need a profile that isn't available with a dry product; something that is increasingly rare.

My dry favorites:
Fermentis Safale S-04 (English profile, reported to be the Witbread strain)
Nottingham (English profile, more attentive that S-04)
Fermentis Safale US-05 (clean, crisp, neutral)
Brewferm Blanche (clean, nice for a wit but almost as expensive as liquid)
Brewferm Lager (used this only once, but with good results, again almost as expensive as liquid)

Just my 2

sirgiovanni · Post by **sirgiovanni** » Sat May 24, 2008 8:45 am

Very cool Chris!

As far as dry yeast, I've always understood that you could never have as pure and contaminant free yeast with dry? Just what I thought. If anyone has any articles, I'd love to read'em.

Dwayne_Delaney · Post by **Dwayne_Delaney** » Sat May 24, 2008 9:12 am

No articles, just beer.....

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My Liquid Yeast Nightmares

My Liquid Yeast Nightmares

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